My wife claims that I never listen! How can I possibly agree with her?
My wife left me! How can I correct the distortions in her criticisms?
How can you deal with people who constantly wallow in self-pity?
And more!
Hi podcast fans,
Today we’ve got some terrific Five Secrets questions that you have submitted.
Mike #1: I love your Five Secrets of Effective Communication. Why does secret #4, “I Feel” Statements, not include Thought Empathy?
Mike #2: I have seen communication models that include expressing and listening for needs. Aren’t needs and wants important and important to express?
Al: How can I help my wife recognize her many cognitive distortions, like All-or-Nothing Thinking? It seems hopeless!
Guy: If a loved one says, “You never listen,” how could I possibly find the truth in this statement? How could you genuinely agree with an All-or-Nothing statement such as, “You never ….”?
Both Sonja and Eileen asked: How can you deal with someone who constantly wallows in self-pity and plays the role of victim. It’s exhausting!
Thanks for tuning in, and keep the great questions coming!
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
* * *
There will be three awesome intensives for you this summer and fall!
Last week we published the first half of the session with Rhonda, who was struggling with severe performance anxiety about her work as the new host of the Feeling Good Podcast host. We did the initial T = Testing, which indicated many intense negative feelings, as well as E = Empathy phase of TEAM therapy session.
This week, we include the conclusion of the session, with A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting and M = Methods, plus final T = Testing to see how effective, or ineffective the session was.
As a reminder of the work we did on the last podcast, you can review Rhonda’s Daily Mood Log here.
When you listen, you will see that the changes Rhonda experienced were amazing. But were these changes real? It almost seem too easy, and too fast, especially for a problem that started in childhood and persisted right up to the present moment. Was the session just a publicity stunt, perhaps, or some kind of superficial quick fix? David asks Rhonda about this, as well as this question: ‘If the changes were real, what caused such rapid and profound changes?
David and Rhonda used many TEAM-CBT techniques they during the session, including these:
David Empathized with the Five Secrets of Effective Communication at the start of the session during the E = Empathy phase. Of course, good empathy is necessary throughout a therapy session.
David melted away Rhonda’s resistance during the A = Paradoxical Agenda Setting. These techniques included:
Straightforward Invitation
Miracle Cure Question
Magic Button
Positive Reframing
Pivot Question
Magic Dial
The M = Methods that were helpful in this session included:
The Individual Downward Arrow to identify the Self-Defeating Beliefs that triggered Rhonda’s feelings of inadequacy.Rhonda enjoyed this exercise and felt it was on target. We identified many Self-Defeating Beliefs, including:
Perfectionism
Perceived Perfectionism
Achievement Addiction
Approval Addiction
Love Addiction
Fear of Rejection
Submissiveness
Inadequacy schema
Spotlight Fantasy
Brushfire Fallacy
Superwoman
The Interpersonal Downward Arrow to illuminate how Rhonda saw her relationship with her father, with David, and with some other people, including the podcast listeners. This is kind of like Psychoanalysis at warp speed. Rhonda said this felt uncomfortable, perhaps because it cast David somewhat as a dangerous ogre!
David and Rhonda smashed several of Rhonda’s Self-Defeating Beliefs with the Feared Fantasy Technique
Identify the Distortions
Paradoxical Double Standard Technique
Externalization of Voices
Acceptance Paradox / Self-Defense Paradigm
Self-Disclosure / Exposure
The Experimental Technique
Thinking in Shades of Gray
Finally, if the changes were real, will they last? Or will Rhonda just slip back into more performance anxiety and self-doubt?
You can click on this link if you’d like to review the evolution of Rhonda’s Daily Mood Log during the session. Please notice that the link is several pages long.
I want to thank Rhonda, my esteemed colleague, friend, and wonderful podcast host, for giving all of us this incredible gift of her humanness.
And I, Rhonda, want to thank the most marvelous, compassionate and incredible David Burns, for the gift of healing and facilitating me experiencing enlightenment and peace from these difficult feelings and negative thoughts that were devastating me. I feel so much gratitude for all of our work together, for your trusting me enough to invite me to be the host of these podcasts, and for the gift of your friendship. Words can’t express the full depth of my love for you and for everything you have given me both personally and professionally!
Did you like the personal work we did? Was it helpful for you personally? Rhonda took a chance and was courageous to share this intensely personal experience with you. Let us know if you liked the podcast!
If you are a therapist, or an interested patient, let us know if this was it a good learning experience. Would you like to hear more podcasts with live personal work?
We are here to serve you, so share your thoughts and feelings with us, as well as your wish list for future podcasts!
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
* * *
There will be three awesome intensives
for you this summer and fall!
Have you ever struggled with performance anxiety, thinking you might fail or not be good enough? I think it is fair to say that every therapist in my Tuesday training group at Stanford has struggled with fairly intense feelings of anxiety and self-doubt, and perhaps you have, too, thinking you should be smarter or better than you are, and fearing that others would judge you if they saw your “true self.” In fact, I would suspect that most of our podcast fans have struggled with these feelings at some time during your life, and maybe even recently or now.
Well, today, we’ve got a wonderful program in store for you. Our own Dr. Rhonda Barovsky asked me for personal help with her own anxieties about being the new podcast host. I asked if she wanted to do it live, on a podcast, and she generously agreed!
In this heart-warming and very human session, Rhonda shares the negative thoughts and feelings she had when she listened to herself on several podcasts and begin noticing this or that error she made. She felt intensely down, anxious, ashamed, inadequate, rejected, embarrassed, discouraged, frustrated, and angry, to name just a few of her negative feelings, and her mind was flooded with negative thoughts like these:
I sound stupid and inarticulate, and some of my comments were inaccurate, like when I said psychiatric diagnoses are meaningless labels.
I’ve had feelings of insecurity ever since I was a child, and should be over this by now!
David is going to regret having me as the podcast host!
Everyone will know I’m a fraud, and no one will like or respect me.
People will judge and reject me, and I’ll end up ostracized and alone.
She believed these thoughts at 100%. You might recall that the Necessary and Sufficient Conditions for emotional distress are:
This is because there are two goals in TEAM-CBT. The first goal is to crush the negative thoughts in the here and now, so that you’ll feel relief. The second goal is to modify the Self-Defeating Beliefs so you’ll be less prone to similar thoughts and feelings in the future.
In next week’s podcast, you will hear the second half of the session, which included A = (Paradoxical) Agenda Setting and M = Methods. You’ll also hear the final T = Testing to find out how effective the session was, and how Rhonda rated David on Empathy and Helpfulness.
I think you’ll find that both sessions are incredibly inspiring and wonderful sources of learning as well. I want to give a shout out to Rhonda for being so courageous and vulnerable and real, and for making this live therapy session possible! After you’ve heard Part 2 next week, let us know what you think!
You’ve all responded very positively to the live therapy we’ve done on the Feeling Good Podcasts, and you’ve asked for more. Rhonda and I are committed to making that happen for you, and we are both so grateful for your support, which means a lot to both of us. Thank you!
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
* * *
There will be three awesome intensives
for you this summer and fall!
In the Spring of 2017, we published our first live TEAM therapy session so our listeners could peak behind closed doors to see an actual TEAM therapy session. Although the session lasted about two hours, we broke it up into seven consecutive podcasts including expert commentary on each segment of the session.
At the start of the session, Mark confessed that although he’d achieved his first goal, he’d failed to achieve his second goal because he wasn’t able to get close to his sons, especially his oldest son. At the start of the session he rated his relationship with his son on the Relationship Satisfaction Scale as only 2 out of 30, an extraordinarily low score. In addition, his scores on the Daily Mood Log indicated he felt very sad, unhappy, guilty, and ashamed. He also felt very inadequate, lonely, self-conscious, discouraged and defeated, frustrated, and somewhat resentful and upset, too. He confessed that he’d felt this way for years.
By the end of the session, these feelings had largely disappeared, and Mark was in a state of joy. In fact, we all felt elated—but will it last?
Many people complain that the rapid and dramatic change I experienced when I do TEAM therapy cannot be real, and cannot last, and that it has to be superficial or fake. They insist that real change can only unfold slowly, over years, or even after a decade or more of talk therapy. I respect critical thinking, and if you’d told me that such rapid and dramatic changes were possible ten years ago, before TEAM had emerged with all the new technology, I would have thought you were a con artist too!
Of course, others have argued the other side of the coin, pointing out that TEAM is research-based and genuinely appears to represent a significant, or even amazing breakthrough in psychotherapy for depression and anxiety, and that the changes ARE real. They have also argued that rapid change should be the goal of treatment, rather than just nursing people along for prolonged periods of time without tangible and measurable changes.
Rhonda and I had the wonderful opportunity of sitting down to interview Mark this last Sunday, following one of my Sunday hikes, so we could try to get some answers to these questions. We asked Mark whether he now felt that the changes were real, and how he’d been doing in the two years since the session. Did the changes last?
The interview with Mark was pretty mind-blowing. He confessed that at the start of the session he, too, was very skeptical that years and years of negative feelings could be reversed in a single therapy session. Then he summarized the session he’d had with Dr. Levitt and me in May of 2017, and his tears flowed once again, as he recalled his feelings of failure at being unable to connect with his sons.
Rhonda asked Mark what happened after the session. Did he just relapse back into the same way he’d been feeling?
Mark said that right after his session, there was an amazing and almost instantaneous transformation of his relationships with all of his sons. He used the Five Secrets of Effective Communication for the first time in his interactions with his sons, and they opened up immediately. He has felt extremely happy, over joyed, really, and reported that:
The changes were VERY real!
The changes DID last.
His relationships with his children and grandchildren are now fantastic.
Rhonda and I are incredibly indebted to Mark for giving us such a transformative and inspiring interview! It probably won’t quiet all of the critics, but this information may be illuminating and inspiring for those who are intrigued by the many new developments in TEAM-CBT.
And my message to those who are still critical of TEAM, or critical of me—please continue to use your critical thinking and skepticism when you evaluate TEAM or any other approach. It was my own skepticism about the things I learned during my residency training and clinical work that actually led to the emergence of TEAM therapy. I don’t want to quiet my critics, I want to praise all of you!
David and Rhonda
Coming Up Soon
Follow-Up with Gary: Rhonda and David interview Gary, a veteran who David treated for PTSD several years ago at a trauma workshop. Gary describes how a repressed horrific memory from his childhood suddenly and forcefully re-emerged when he smelled some Queen Anne’s Lace that were in blossom, and what he experienced during his TEAM-CBT session with David.
Can severe PTSD be treated in a single therapy session? You’ll find out when you listen to this amazing and emotional interview with Gary!
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
* * *
Would you like to learn how to do TEAM-CBT?
There will be three awesome intensives
for you this summer and fall!
Today we’ve got some terrific questions that you have submitted.
General Questions
Jose and Bri both asked: How would you treat hypochondria?
Christian: How would you treat an abuse survivor? I’ve heard that talk therapy is inadequate for healing trauma!
Ted: Is there such a thing as healthy euphoria?
Hillary: Would you do a podcast covering the treatment of mania?
Jim: I think I have ADHD, but some doctors claim it’s not a true diagnosis. What do you think?
Dan: What your thoughts are on LSD in the treatment of depression and anxiety?
I could not get to all of your excellent questions in the time provided. The next time we do Ask David with general questions, we will include these:
Guy: What’s a nervous breakdown?
Rob: How would you treat a field goal kicker who’s afraid of missing the winning field goal? Would you use positive visualizations?
Michael: How would you treat someone with the fear of aging? I turn 60 in a few months!
Hidem: How fast is fast? You seem to get super-fast recoveries from your patients most of the time. How about other therapists? How rapidly does the average patient recover>
Rubens: What you can do when you’re upset but can’t identify any negtaive thoughts?
Next week, our Ask David will focus on questions about relationship conflicts and problems. Rhonda and I have lots of other cool programs planned in upcoming weeks.
Thanks for tuning in today, and over the past months. We will hit one million downloads in a week or two (this is April, 2019). Rhonda, Fabrice, and I deeply appreciate your support!
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Coming in less than one week. Act fast if you want to reserve a seat!
by David D. Burns, MD and Jill Levitt, PhD
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. IT IS LESS THAN ONE WEEK AWAY! Our Sunday workshops can be tremendously rewarding, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February was really fun! We are SOLD OUT fin person, but still have spots online, and you can join us from anywhere in the world. Register soon if you are interested, as the online slots are also limited.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
We will have expert trainers in person as well, including David and Jill!
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST
(11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES!
Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
Hi podcast fans,David and Rhonda discuss and old controversy: Can a self-help book can really help? Or will you need psychotherapy and / or an antidepressant if you are seriously depressed?
I (DB) wrote up the following overview of bibliotherapy research prior to today’s recording with Rhonda. I hope you find it interesting!
I have to admit that I’ve never had much respect for self-help books. Many of them seem to be written by narcissistic individuals with pretty superficial ideas who mainly want to promote themselves, and this has been my strong bias as well. When I pick one up in a bookstore, I nearly always get immediately turned off. And I get a flood of them in the mail as well, from authors asking for an endorsement. I have a policy of not doing book or product endorsements—it’s the easiest way to say no.
And I never thought of my book, Feeling Good: The new Mood Therapy, as a self-help book. My idea was that people receiving cognitive therapy could read it between sessions as a way of speeding up their recovery, so that the therapist could do the individual work and not have to do so much teaching about the basic concepts, like my list of ten cognitive distortions.
But at the same time, shortly after the book was released, I began getting letters, and later on emails, from individuals who said they book had actually caused them to recover from pretty severe depression. In fact, over the years, I would guess I’ve received more than ten thousand letters or emails like that, and probably way more than that, maybe even fifty thousand.
Still, it had not occurred to me that it might actually be a self-help book, in spite of the fact that lots of the people who wrote me said the book had helped them much more than the treatments they’d received over the years.
One day a colleague asked if I’d seen the article about my book in the New York Times. Apparently, Dr. Forrest Scogin, a research psychologist from the University of Alabama Medical Center, had studied the effects of reading a self-help book on patients seeking treatment for moderate to severe depression. In a nutshell, their studies indicated that simply reading Feeling Good may help some patients overcome depression and may help to prevent future relapses as well. This finding was a shock, but was not entirely unexpected due to all the testimonials I’d been received from people who’d read the book.
In their first study, Dr. Forest Scogin and his colleagues told patients seeking treatment for depression that they’d be placed on a four-week waiting list before beginning treatment. Half of the patients were given a copy of either my Feeling Good or a self-help book on depression by Dr. Peter Lewinsohn called Up from Depression. The researchers suggested that the patients could read their book while they were waiting for their first appointment with the psychiatrist.
The other half of the patients who were placed on the four-week waiting list did not receive a copy a self-help book. Both groups of patients were contacted each week by a research assistant who administered a test to assess the severity of depression. The goal of course was to find out if there were any changes in depression in any of the patients.
The results of the study were interesting. Approximately two-thirds of the patients who received one of the self-help books improved or recovered from depression during the four weeks, even though they received no other treatment with drugs or psychotherapy. In fact, they improved to such an extent that most of them did not even need any further treatment. In contrast, the patients who did not receive one of the books failed to improve during the four-week waiting period. As far as I know, this was the first time that the anti-depressant effects of a self-help book had ever been documented in carefully controlled research study published in a scientific journal.
Then the researchers did a number of additional experiments. First, they gave a copy of one of the two self-help books to the patients in the second group who had not improved. They asked them to wait four more weeks before beginning treatment, but suggested they read the book during their wait. Two-thirds of them also improved and did not need further treatment. This study was published in the medical journal, Gerontologist.
Some critics challenged the study, arguing that the improvement in the patients who received the self-help book might have simply been a placebo effect. In other words, maybe it was just the reading, and the expectation of recovery, that helped, as opposed to the ideas and techniques described in the books.
To test this, the investigators studied a new group of patients who were asked to read a “placebo” book while waiting for treatment. The researchers chose a classic book by Victor Frankl called Man’s Search for Meaning. If these patients also improved, it would confirm that the effect of reading on mood was simply a non-specific “placebo” effect. This is incredibly important, because almost any type of intervention can have a placebo effect, so that as many as 35% of patients will improve just because they think they’ll improve.
Surprisingly, the patients who read the Victor Frankl book did not improve. This exciting finding indicated that a self-help book can have a specific and fairly strong antidepressant effect, but that the book had to contain sound information that was actually helpful to individuals with depression.
Finally, the investigators also did several careful follow-up studies on these patients to find out if the antidepressant effects of Feeling Good and Up from Depression would last. In several additional publications, they reported that these patients did not relapse but maintained their improved moods for periods up to three years, and that they actually continued to improve following their initial Feeling Good “bibliotherapy.
However, they did not report that they were happy all the time. But when they hit bumps in the road, most of them picked up the book again, and re-read the sections that had been the most helpful, and then quickly recovered again.
It’s great that two thirds of the patients improved so rapidly. This result is at least as good as the effects of antidepressants or treatment with psychotherapy—and it’s far cheaper, and with no side effects either! But at the same time, one third of the patients did NOT improve. And of course, you see the same thing with treatment of depression by a psychiatrist or psychologist. In fact, recent research indicates that only 50% of patients, AT MOST, improve with professional treatment.
In my research, I’ve attempted to figure out what’s different about the patients who do not rapidly recover when treated with psychotherapy or Feeling Good bibliotherapy. And I believe I did find out why. To learn about that, you’ll have to listen to the Feeling Good Podcasts or read my new book, Feeling Great, when it comes out. Hopefully fairly soon!
I was pretty inspired by the terrific and important research by Forrest Scogin, and want to thank him!
If you or your patients would like to read one of my “self-help” books, the following table will show you which books are best for which kinds of problems. The reading list at the end is for individuals who might like to check out the original studies by Dr. Scogin and his colleagues.
This is a simplified ten-step program to overcome depression and boost self-esteem. it is effective individually or in support groups.
Bibliotherapy Research
Ackerson J, Scogin F, McKendree-Smith N, Lyman RD (1998) Cognitive bibliotherapy for mild and moderate adolescent depressive symptomatology. J Consult Clin Psychol 66: 685-690.
Floyd M, Rohen N, Shackelford JA, Hubbard KL, Parnell MB, et al. (2006) Two-year follow-up of bibliotherapy and individual cognitive therapy for depressed older adults. Behav Modif 30: 281-294.
Floyd M, Scogin F, McKendree-Smith N, Floyd DL, Rokke PD (2004) Cognitive therapy for depression: a comparison of individual psychotherapy and bibliotherapy for depressed older adults. Behav Modif 28: 297-318.
Jamison C, Scogin F (1995) The outcome of cognitive bibliotherapy with depressed adults. J Consult Clin Psychol 63: 644-650.
Mains JA, Scogin FR (2003) The effectiveness of self-administered treatments: a practice-friendly review of the research. J Clin Psychol 59: 237-246.
McKendree-Smith NL, Floyd M, Scogin FR (2003) Self-administered treatments for depression: a review. J Clin Psychol 59: 275-288.
Scogin F, Floyd M, Jamison C, Ackerson J, Landreville P, et al. (1996) Negative outcomes: what is the evidence on self-administered treatments? J Consult Clin Psychol 64: 1086-1089.
Scogin F, Hamblin D, Beutler L (1987) Bibliotherapy for depressed older adults: a self-help alternative. Gerontologist 27: 383-387.
Scogin F, Jamison C, Davis N (1990) Two-year follow-up of bibliotherapy for depression in older adults. J Consult Clin Psychol 58: 665-667.
Scogin F, Jamison C, Gochneaur K (1989) Comparative efficacy of cognitive and behavioral bibliotherapy for mildly and moderately depressed older adults. J Consult Clin Psychol 57: 403-407.
Smith NM, Floyd MR, Jamison CS, and Scogin F (1997) Three-year follow-up of bibliotherapy for depression. J Consult Clin Psychol 65: 324-327.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. Our Sunday workshops can be tremendously rewarding, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February was really fun! We have been SOLD OUT for the in person slots in Palo Alto for two months, but still have spots online, and you can join us from anywhere in the world. Register soon if you are interested, as the online slots are also limited.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST (11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES! Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
This is the second of two podcasts on the Story of Sherrie, who experienced some of the symptoms of PTSD after a traumatic event involving her husband. In the first podcast, we played the T, E, and A portions of the session. In this podcast, we will play the M = methods as well as the conclusion of this amazing session.
Dr. Rhonda and I will make some teaching comments on the session as well.
If you’d like to see Sherrie’s end-of-session Daily Mood Log, click here.
After the session, Sherrie received some notes from others in the audience.
Sherrie,
I think what stood out for me in that session was your authenticity. No mask, no defenses. I fell like we can’t really appreciate what our clients are doing when they open themselves up to face their fears until we do it honestly ourselves, and you did–in front of all of us! I feel it was a gift you gave us and I thank you!
Candice
Here’s another note for Sherrie:
Sherrie, You Rock–I love you–and never met you before tonight. 🙂
You cried.
You laughed.
You said No.
You said Yes.
You woke up!
You’re a Brave Woman!
What a lucky husband you’ve got!
Thank you.
A sister, a colleague,
Rita
And another.
To Sherrie
Your session–that was brave!
Shows strong commitment to yourself and to the people you work with. You will be more effective stronger, real, fee, and go even deeper with your clients.
Mary
If you want to send a message to Sherrie, use the comment feature below, and I will be sure to forward your thoughts to her!
When people learn about the incredibly rapid recoveries that I am so often seeing with TEAM, they always ask about whether the effects last,or whether the dramatic changes are just a flash in the pan. Of course, Relapse Prevention Training is critical, as negative thoughts and feelings will tend to come back over and over for all of us. That’s just part of the human experience. And if you know how to deal with these occasional “relapses,” you don’t have to worry about them, because you’ll know how to crush the negative thoughts and feelings pretty fast.
At any rate, Sherrie’s session was more than two years ago, and here’s an email I got from her a couple weeks ago:
Hi David. I always enjoy hearing from you!
I agree for you to show the video at the summer intensives, I am actually quite proud of it all so have nothing to hide! You can also do it as a podcast, whatever is workable. I have looked at the podcasts you sent and they look wonderful so will certainly listen to what I can over time!
Okay, so for an update and thank you for asking. The year after my cancer, my husband had his heart attack, so that was four years ago. He is, thank G-d, wonderfully healthy. There is no heart damage and he can do everything he wants to do. And he is even getting better at taking his pills, so I don’t have to remind him so much.
I have a question for you as what you do is not what I can or want to do. I think you said you were 75 when we met in the training. So what I don’t get is how do you have the energy to see clients, write books, do podcasts, travel all over and do workshops etc? How do you fit all that in? You must want to!
All the best and enjoy spring!
Sherrie
Thanks for listening! David and Rhonda
Oh, my secret is that I am almost always doing what I want to do. Teaching and treating colleagues with TEAM give me tremendous energy, except when I screw up, which is fairly often! But I’m used to making errors by now, and I really love what I do, so I don’t think of it as “work,” but more like having fun hanging out with friends. It is a bit like when you were a kid and got to go out and play after dinner! That was THE BEST!
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. Our Sunday workshops are tremendously helpful, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February was really fun! We have been SOLD OUT for the in person slots in Palo Alto for two months, but still have spots online, and you can join us from anywhere in the world. Register soon if you are interested, as the online slots are also limited.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST (11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES! Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
We made an audio editing at the start of podcast 137 on the Treatment of Trauma. We are attempting to fix it and publish it again, and apologize. I understand that it only affects the very start of the podcast.
I hope this was not too traumatic for any of you! We are trying to CURE trauma, and not CAUSE it! 🙂
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. Our Sunday workshops can be tremendously rewarding, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February was really fun! We have been SOLD OUT for the in person slots in Palo Alto for two months, but still have spots online, and you can join us from anywhere in the world. Register soon if you are interested, as the online slots are also limited.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST (11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES! Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
There have been many requests for more podcasts on how we would treat trauma, using the TEAM-CBT model. I have done at least 25 workshops on the treatment of trauma in the past several years, and always do a live therapy demonstration at the end of day 1, so people can see with their own eyes how TEAM-CBT actually works. About three years ago, I did a live demonstration with a wonderful woman named Sherrie who was extremely anxious about a traumatic event involving her husband a year earlier. Sherrie kindly and courageous gave me permission to share the audio tract with you. I think you’ll really enjoy the session! I want to thank Sherrie for giving us this gift! I also want to thank my co-therapist during the session, Mike Christensen, who is Canada’s top expert in TEAM-CBT. Here’s our photo at the workshop:
While you are listening, you may want to take a look at Sherrie’s Daily Mood Log, which describes the trauma, along with her negative thoughts and feelings. We will publish the first half of the session in this podcast, and the end of the session in the next podcast. We’ll also include a live, three-year follow-up with Sherrie that we recorded recently.
Dr. Rhonda and I will make some teaching comments on the session as well.
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. Our Sunday workshops can be tremendously rewarding, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February was really fun! We have been SOLD OUT for the in person slots in Palo Alto for two months, but still have spots online, and you can join us from anywhere in the world. Register soon if you are interested, as the online slots are also limited.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST (11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES! Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
Rhonda, Fabrice and I received a number of thoughtful emails following our recent podcast on mindfulness meditation, which seems to be quite popular these days, but there some push-back from listeners who all did not agree that mindfulness is an effective way of combating negative thoughts and feelings.
Email from Jeremy
Hi David,
I listened to the Feeling Good Podcast on meditation this morning and had some thoughts I wanted to share. For context I’ve been meditating daily for about 3 months.
First – I personally think that if someone is struggling with depression or anxiety, TEAM-CBT is a dramatically faster acting and more powerful tool than mindfulness. I’ve never seen or heard about someone having a dramatic recovering in just a few hours due to mindfulness. I’ve never seen the idea of resistance explored in any kind of mindfulness book or article.
I also don’t really think much of mindfulness as a “method” in the TEAM model, because compared to the other methods for removing negative thoughts it’s extremely weak. I imagine that with hundreds of hours of mindfulness practice you might reach a point where it’s easier to let go of negative thoughts. (There are a lot of reports like that/) However, it’s a very slow way of dealing with negative thoughts compared to externalization of voices etc.
I think for a therapist who knows TEAM to suggest mindfulness as a key practice to their patient is almost negligent, since TEAM is so much more effective.
That said, I’ve sensed a few benefits of mindfulness which is why I’ve been investing my time in it:
– I think you can view meditation as concentration practice, and I’ve found that meditation increases my ability to concentrate
– You can reach a very calm and relaxed state in meditation where you cease to have thoughts, and this state is extremely pleasurable
– I’ve noticed that mindfulness increase my ability to enjoy experiences, including experiences I might enjoy less if I was having even positive or neutral thoughts. As an example, after about 30 minutes of meditation the other day I went for a walk in the woods and stop for about 10 minutes to look at a ridge. My visual experience was completely immersive and I even started to feel like the trees were breathing with me. It was one of the high points of my week. I suspect that even someone who had no negative thoughts might be flooded with positive but irrelevant thoughts (like a yummy meal they might be headed to eat later) would have enjoyed this scene much less.
I’ve also run an experiment using the PAS and CBT to remove the motivation to have distracting thoughts. (ie write down the advantages to having distracting thoughts and disadvantages of focusing on the breath, and then talk back to those) I would classify it as a highly successful experiment, after talking back to all the good reasons to think about something besides my breath my focus got dramatically better. I wonder if this technique could be used to either improve meditation or even supplant the need for it. (because it gets rid of distracting thoughts directly, while meditation is basically practice for having fewer distracting thoughts)
Anyway, just thought I would share some thoughts and ideas with you.
Best,
Jeremy
Email from Paul
Hey, Dr. Burns!
I am with you in terms of the skepticism of mindfulness as a panacea. I also am not sure how particularly effective it is even as a tool in the fight against negative thoughts. I personally cannot seem to get anything out of it, but I am trying to make sense out of how so many people can find it useful.
Perhaps you could put it like this: Mindfulness is not a specific technique for specific problems, but a general method for psychological health. If you have a specific medical condition, you’ll want to get a specific treatment. Sometimes specific conditions can be alleviated by taking care of your health generally (eating healthier, sleeping better, etc.) Still, depending upon the disease, in order to get rid of it, you’ll need a specific treatment. However, even when you’re not dealing with a specific disease, generally good health practices can lower your chances of getting any diseases and lessen the severity when they do arise. In sum, perhaps the goals of mindfulness and CBT are different.
I think that might respect what both you and Fabrice are getting at. I think this goes to answer partly a question I’ve had about TEAM. To what extent is alleviation of anxiety, depression, etc the final goal? Are there religious, spiritual, or psychological problems that are positive goals beyond relief? In Feeling Good, it sounded like you thought that happiness was just the absence of depression. Is that all there is to say about human flourishing? Or do you methodologically stick within the parameters of your client’s value system, asking only “what can I help you with” because you’re a psychologist and not a priest, for example?
Paul
David and Rhonda discuss several important points raised by these listeners, including:
Non-specific vs. / specific interventions. David describes an elderly man named Ezekiel who had escaped from Nazi Germany as a teenager, and still felt like a “totally worthless human being” in spite of incredible success in life. He’d start out shining shoes on the streets of New York City) and end up as a wealthy industrialist, but that did nothing to boost his self-esteem. He’d decades of psychotherapy as well, but it was not effective.
David encouraged him to jog long distances daily to boost the release of “endorphins” in the brain, but that did not work either. Nor would medication or meditation have worked, either.
When you learn why Ezekiel felt like a “worthless human being,” you’ll see exactly why! And you’ll also learn what did work to end decades of suffering and self-doubt.
The time required for meditation, not only during sessions, but in between sessions, is considerable. David would prefer his patients use this time for doing specific psychotherapy homework.
Formulaic treatment. Life has always been stressful, and people are always looking for some simple “solution” to emotional problems, which seem almost universal. The current wellness fad is a great example of that. So, people promote a healthy diet, daily exercise, daily meditation, daily prayer, relaxation training, deep breathing, expressing gratitude, and a host of other things as the secret of happiness and contentment.
These formulas, in my opinion (DB), do not have, and will never have, more than a placebo effect in the treatment of stress. depression, anxiety disorders, relationship problems, and habits and addictions. Sadly, those who are hugely enthusiastic about one of these fads, or formulas, will not want to hear what I just said, as sometimes we just don’t want to have our beliefs challenged. We see this resistance in politics, in religion, and in almost every aspect of our lives.
Mindfulness is already a TEAM technique, even without meditation–but not a terribly effective method, in David’s clinical experience. However, for certain kinds of recurrent negative thoughts, Self-Monitoring and Reattribution can be helpful. These techniques are similar to Mindfulness Meditation, but are only two of more than 100 Methods David uses in treatment, and they are not for everybody. David gives an example of the intensely anxious eye doctor with OCD who was afraid of going blind, who responded to Self-Monitoring and Response Prevention.
There’s nothing wrong with a healthy diet, or meditation, or prayer, or anything that you enjoy, anything that gives you a sense of meaning. But these non-specific approaches should not be confused with specific treatments for depression, anxiety disorders, conflicts in relationships with others, or habits and addictions.
Thanks for listening!
David and Rhonda
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com.
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
Dr. Jill Levitt and I are offering what I think will be an outstanding workshop on the treatment of anxiety disorders on Sunday, May 19, 2019. Our Sunday workshops are tremendously fun, so consider attending if you are interested.
The last Sunday workshop in February sold out quickly so register soon if you are interested. You can join in Palo Alto in person or online from anywhere in the world.
THERE WILL BE MANY EXPERT TRAINERS TO GUIDE THE ONLINE PARTICIPANTS DURING THE SMALL GROUP EXERCISES
WHEN: May 19, 2019, 8:30 am – 4:30 pm PST (11:30 am-7:30 pm EST)
WHERE: Join us live online or in person at the Creekside Inn, Palo Alto, CA.
HOW MUCH DOES IT COST? $135,
WILL I GET CE CREDITS? YES! 7 CE hours available
WILL I GET CREDIT IN THE TEAM LICENSURE PROGRAM? YES! Completion of this workshop also counts towards TEAM-CBT Level 1, 2 or 3 Certification
WHO CAN ATTEND? Therapists of all levels are welcome
CAN I REGISTER IF I’M NOT A THERAPIST? Although the workshop is geared for therapists, it will be taught in a clear and basic way that anyone can benefit from.
WILL I HAVE FUN? Yes!
WILL I HAVE GET TO HANG OUT WITH SOME COOL COLLEAGUES? Yes!
WILL I GET AN AWESOME FREE BREAKFAST AND LUNCH? Yes!
You will love this lively, amusing, and immensely useful day of training with Drs. Burns, Levitt and the Feeling Good Institute Staff. The trainers will use a combination of didactic teaching, live demonstrations, video, and breakout group practice to enhance skill-building.
