Where Do Feelings Come From?
Getting Unstuck from Apathy
Ancient Stoic Philosophers–and More!
Ask David Questions for Today
Bystad: Why is it so helpful to write down your negative thoughts when you’re upset?
Anyinio: Do we have to have a thought every time we have an emotion? What if I see a car coming fast and about to hit me? Would I have to have a fast automatic thought?
Raghav: How can I get unstuck from apathy?
Anita: What are the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional distress as well as escape from emotional distress?
Louisa: Can you tell us some more about the ancient and modern Stoic philosophers who influenced the development of CBT and TEM-CBT?
Answers to today’s questions. The following answers were written before the podcast. The information on the podcast may be quite different in some cases, and will typically provide much more information than the brief answers below. David
Bystad asks: Why is it so helpful to write down your negative thoughts when you’re upset?
Dear David!
I have practiced the paradoxical approach where I just write down my thougts / worries without challenging them.
I think I learned that approach from your great book «When Panic Attacks».
This is something that really works for me, especially for worries. It is almost like I «get the worries out of my head».
Can you talk about this approach in your lovely podcast, why is it so effective for some people??
Best regards from Martin
David’s reply
Great question. Will address it the next time we record an Ask David podcast!
Anyinio asks: Do you ALWAYS have a thought before you can experience an emotion / feeling?
David’s response
The word “thought” is just a form of shorthand for perception. Perception can take many forms. When you see a car about to hit you, you already HAVE a negative and alarming thought!
If you like, you can check out the railroad track story in my Feeling Good Handbook. It is a story about a man who became euphoric after his car was hit by a train going 60 MPH because of his thoughts about it!
When a deer spots a pack of howling wolves, it runs in terror. It does not have a “thought” in English, but it DOES have the perception of being in imminent danger, and it DOES experience intense, sudden fear. However, the deer did NOT feel fear / anxiety until s/he SAW and correctly interpreted the pack of wolves.
Thanks, best, david
Raghav asks: How can I get unstuck from apathy?
Hi Dr. Burns,
I hope you’re doing well and thank you so much for all of your incredible work! It has really helped me pull myself out of some of the deepest depressions and anxieties I’ve had.
I wanted to ask for your help with a problem I’ve been facing recently:
I seem to get stuck in depressive cycles at times where I don’t want to do a DML even though I know it will make me feel better. When I start doing the positive reframing, it helps melt away this resistance, but I still mope around for a while before I start the positive reframing. My thoughts during this time are generally “There’s no point to getting better,” “Doing a DML is like forcing myself to cheer up,” “I should care about getting better more than I do right now,” and “There’s no meaning to life.” How would you recommend I go about dealing with this apathetic state?
I would greatly appreciate any help in this matter!
Thanks,
Raghav
David’s reply:
You could perhaps list:
-
- All the really GOOD reasons NOT to do a DML.
- What the procrastination / avoidance shows about you and your core values that positive and awesome.
- How the avoidance helps you.
Something along those lines.
I might make this an Ask David question if that’s okay with you. Could use your first name only, or a fake name if you prefer.
Thanks! Good question, as so many can relate to it!
Best, david
Raghav’s response to David
Here’s the answers I came up with:
Good Reasons NOT to do a DML
- Doing a DML might be difficult and take a long time.
- I might not be able to answer some of my thoughts.
- Even if I do a DML, I might not be able to change my mood.
- Even if I change my mood, there’s no point in being happy.
- There’s no sense of meaning in doing a DML.
- It feels inauthentic to try to change my mood.
- Even if I do a DML now, I will return to this state again.
- Doing a DML is like forcing myself to cheer up and I don’t want to be forced to do anything.
- I want to be able to get better without doing a DML.
- I might have to confront really negative and distressing thoughts.
Core Values it shows about me
- I care about doing things successfully — I don’t want to half-ass it.
- I want to put my best foot forward when doing tasks — i.e. not do them when I’m tired.
- I want to be self-reliant and be able to solve all my problems myself.
- I care about being able to change my mood.
- I care about having meaning in life.
- I care about being authentic to my emotional states — I can honor my apathetic/bored side.
- I can sit with my sadness and apathy rather than trying to escape it.
- I care about having lasting solutions rather than short-term fixes.
- I’m my own man — I’m not going to be forced to do something I don’t want to do.
- I care about being able to deal with my emotional problems without “crutches.”
How the Avoidance Helps Me
- It means that I don’t have to do the hard work of doing a DML.
- I don’t have to engage in the ups and downs of life if I’m apathetic/avoidant.
- I can keep engaging in avoidance and distracting myself.
- It feels like there are no consequences to my actions so I feel more free.
- I don’t have to do the hard work required to build meaning into my life.
- I can fully engage and honor my apathy and boredom.
- I’ll push myself to search for lasting solutions to my problems.
- It pushes me to improve my mental capabilities of solving my problems.
- It helps me avoid the pain and anguish of actually addressing really negative thoughts.
- It pushes me to find more interesting things to fill my life with.
Raghav
David’s reply
Great work, thanks! So now my question is this: Given all these positives, it is not clear to me why you’d want to do a DML. What’s your thinking about this?
Best, david
Anita asks about the necessary and sufficient conditions for emotional distress as well as escape from emotional distress?
Dear David
While revisiting Feeling Great I was thinking further about the interplay of necessary and sufficient conditions that are correlated to emotional distress.
Necessary condition: You must have a negative thought
Sufficient condition: You must believe in the negative thought
I was thinking of another sufficient condition that may account for the behavioural component of emotional distress:
Sufficient condition: You must act in way that reinforces your negative thought.
For me this additional sufficient condition unlocks another philosophical underpinning why exposure is a key to overcoming anxiety.
For example, if I have a negative thought I’m going to screw up in a presentation and then I believe it 100%. I can still summon up the courage to go ahead and do the presentation. Thus, I’m behaving in a way that doesn’t fulfil the second sufficient condition, and therefore another way to reduce emotional distress. More often than not, the presentation is not as calamitous as I anticipated anyways.
Thanks for reading.
Warm Regards
Anita
David’s reply
Hi Anita,
Great question, thanks. I greatly appreciate folks who think more deeply about these things.
Exposure is a desirable tool in the treatment of anxiety, for sure, but if you point is “necessary and sufficient” for emotional distress, then the action thing is an unnecessary and erroneous, to my way of thinking, add-on. For example, many people who are severely depressed and believe themselves to be worthless do very little, and others do a great deal, but both feel the same severity of distress.
Could we use this for an Ask David, with or without your first name? If so, we could also discuss the “necessary and sufficient” for emotional change. Here the sufficient condition is that you no longer believe the negative thought, or your belief has gone down significantly.
You can respond, too, if you like to my comments.
Warmly, david
Anita’s Response to David
Thanks David, sure I’d be pleased if you find any of what I wrote useful for your listeners. Feel free to use my first name. I’m also curious to know more about the depth of belief in a negative thought as a sufficient condition for emotional distress. Is there a particular intensity or tipping point that might lead to the emotional distress?
David’s Response: The greater you belief in a negative thought, the greater the emotional impact. There’s no “tipping point.”
I loved the premise of your book: “When you change the way you think, you can change the way you feel” It got me pondering about the possibility other things such as some behaviours in addition to thoughts that could be associated with emotional distress.
David’s Response: Your own or someone else’s behaviour won’t have any effect on you until you have a thought, or interpretation, of what’s happening. This is the basic premise of CBT, going back 3500 years or more.
An example I’m thinking of is workplace procrastination. Let’s say I have been given two weeks to tackle a laborious project. I might initially have thoughts there is plenty of time and I can procrastinate for the first week doing things I find more satisfying at work.
Towards the end of the second week, panic sets in as I rush through the project so I can still meet the deadline.
After the event, I start ruminating and believing self-critical thoughts such as “I shouldn’t have been so lazy” and “I’m never able to handle projects well.”
Is it to say, the behaviours before the event has little to no bearing on the negative thoughts or belief after the event? And if so why is it really the case that the negative thinking comes into play after the event happens?
David’s Response: Negative thinking can happen before, during, or after an event.
I really have gained much from many of your books. I’m inquiring to deepen and refine my own thought processes.
Thankyou
Warm Regards
Anita
David’s Response
Thanks so much for you kind and thoughtful comments.
Louisa asks: I’d like learn more about the ancient and modern Stoic philosophers who influenced the development of CBT and TEM-CBT.
Hello Rhonda and David,
I am a Belgium based listener thoroughly enjoying the podcast and sharing it far and wide! I love the TEAM CBT structured approach.
I find in particular that many of the methods are (relatively) easy to remember and administering self-help feels much easier than I ever imagined.
Well-done, David!
I wonder if David could talk one time about the different influences various figures in the development of CBT right from its inception with (it seems to me) the Roman Stoics until this century.
Some names that come to mind are Seneca, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, to Albert Ellis, Aaron Beck & William Glasser (these last three all since passed away.)
Are they any particular names that stick out as having been particularly useful in the development of TEAM CBT and why or how? Do the Roman Stoics still have anything to offer us?
Thanks for the great show!
Louisa
David’s Response
Hi Louisa,
Thanks, will include in the list of questions for the next Ask David, depending on time constraints. Best, david
PS Albert Ellis documents much of the history in his book, Reason and Emotion in Psychotherapy. I believe that Karen Horney, the feminist psychiatrist of the first part of the 20 th century, discuss lots of the current ideas as well, especial the “need” for love, success, etc. and the idea that we have an “ideal” self and a “real” self. We get upset when we realize that the two don’t match!
David and Rhonda are grateful that Matt can join us often on the podcast. We are both members of the Matt May fan club and believe he is one of the finest therapists on planet earth. He is a board-certified, Stanford-trained psychiatrist and expert in TEAM-CBT. You can contact him at: https://matthewmaymd.com/
Dr. Rhonda Barovsky is a Level 5 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. You can reach her at rhonda@feelinggreattherapycenter.com.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com
Karen Horney spoke against the neurotic need for love — not the need for love. She believed love was a need. Those who eat too much are as unhealthy as are those who eat too little. But neither the one nor the other disprove the need for food. This was exactly Horney’s position on love, success and other needs.
Albert Ellis, who David mentioned, had a similar view. At one time he believed the solution to the problem of loneliness and rejection was to find happiness in solitude. In his last published work, which was his second autobiography, he relates that he abandoned that approach and that he encouraged others to overcome their deficiencies so as to find love, which again is not the position of someone who believed, as David represents, that love is non-essential to happiness. Ellis spoke against the dire need for love — not the need for love.
Likewise with Arnold Lazarus, who David credits as the inventor of the desert island fantasy technique which he claims “proves” that love is not a human need. David’s argument was that if you can imagine yourself being happy while in solitude then you could be. Unfortunately for that position, if you read Lazarus himself you’ll discover that he took exactly the opposite view and referred to clients who stated a desire to remain alone on an imaginary island as pathological. The original technique was a tool to find out how clients would relate to others in a fantasy scenario so as to discover what problems impaired their functioning in the real world.
So too it was with Aaron Beck who, despite claiming that love was not a human need, was continually surrounded by loved ones. In fact, he was literally dependent on them because he was physically disabled. Rather inconveniently for his hypothesis on the self-sufficiency of the individual, his obituary reported that he was often depressed and that he frequently worried about approval. Again, not exactly consistent with his view that you don’t need love and affection. But that’s the beauty of much philosophy and psychotherapy — you can sell people on a comforting idea despite it having no basis in fact whatsoever.
Thanks, Steve, for sharing your thinking on the topic of love, from a philosophical and therapeutic perspective. You clearly have tremendous knowledge and expertise, and have done a lot of scholarly study in this area. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective and takeing a “deeper dive!” Best, david
Thank you, David. It’s an honor and a pleasure to have the opportunity to argue against what appears to be both harmful and untrue. However, I may be mistaken in this. After all, it’s not argument that counts but experiment. Would you be willing to put your beliefs to the test?
You could settle the matter once and for all by means of a randomized, controlled trial wherein some are sent for six months to a desolate cabin while the others live among a stimulating and lively set of companions.
If the tenets of TEAM-CBT are both true and known to the participants, there should be no difference between the two groups at the completion of the study. You’ll have rendered humanity a service, and a hundred years hence they shall speak your name in reverential tones.
Hi Steve!
The honor and pleasure of meeting you and shooting the breeze is all mine! Where are you located? What do you do? Curious!
Your experiment sounds great, let’s do it! Just joking, kind of a costly experiment! My favorite TV show is called ALONE. It features ten survivalists who are put in isolated conditions with few tools and the person who can last the longest wins a large amount of cash (one half or one quarter million dollars.) A few leave due to loneliness and yearning to be back home with loved ones. Others leave (most in fact) due to starvation and inability to get food. Some leave due to injuries or illnesses. Some “tap out” after a day or two, others make it for 70 or 80 days. They have trouble finding fish or food to eat, and it gets super cold in the winter, so all they have is the shelter they built.
I have often had patients do experiments on this idea that we “need people” using my Pleasure Predicting Sheet. I described on in my chapter on The Love Addiction in Feeling Good. I used to take your side in the argument for sure, and thought Beck was nuts when he first made that statement!
Good hear from you at any rate, thanks!
Warmly, david
Hear! Hear! As Albert Ellis wrote in his article The Case Against Religiosity, “Devout adherents of cognitive therapy (including devout RETers) may not tolerate the idea that ANY feeling can be free of thought and will insist that ALL dysfunctional behaviors (such as headaches and feelings of depression) MUST be of purely ideological origin.” Shame that some seem to have missed this point.
Hi Saul, Thanks for contributing to the lively dialogue. I like your statement, but don’t get your conclusion, and maybe you can clarify. Are you saying the perceptions always DO precede and trigger positive and negative feelings, or are you arguing that this is NOT the case. In other words, I agree strongly that many–perhaps most–DO miss the point! But which point are they missing?
I’m with you, not picking an argument at all, just elderly and slightly confused. Your writing style, by the way, is elegant, but I’m not entirely “getting” it.
Thanks! david
Hi, David! I’m confused. You say that even highly motivated contestants competing for a $500,00 prize struggle to survive a mere 80 days of solitude, even though they’re free to leave and return to their loved ones at any time.
How does this support your belief that years of solitude can be easy or even enjoyable for regular people with no loved ones, who won’t win any prize and who can’t leave an artificial game show scenario at will?
It seems to me that when even the show’s strong competitors like Clay nearly breakdown due to loneliness that the facts are against that argument. Thanks. Marcia.
Hi Marcia, a big WOW and thanks for your response. I am a little confused and need clarification. You wrote “your belief that years of solitude can be easy or even enjoyable for regular people with no loved ones. . . .” Just so we’re on the same page, and dealing with what’s real, can you tell me what or who you’re quoting here? That would be a great starting place, starting with something that is factually true. Sometimes people attribute absurd statements to David, and then argue that the absurd statement(s) aren’t true!
I’m sure you wouldn’t intentionally do that, and wouldn’t want to do that by accident, so illuminate me and let me know what book or podcast or whatever you are referring to! You sound very thoughtful and smart, so kudos for that, but I need clarification so I can try to respond in a meaningful way!
You make other great points, too, but I like to start with something specific, if that’s okay!
Best, david
I’d be happy to, David. You used Alone as evidence of happiness in solitude, but even the show’s winners seem tortured by the isolation. How then does this support your belief that thoughts determine feelings? The feelings seem instead to be determined by the situation.
And if even resilient, highly motivated contestants find isolation agonizing, despite having much to gain and loved ones anxiously awaiting their return, then why would it be any easier for regular people who have none of these advantages? After all, your theory predicts that motivation is the crucial causative factor of emotion. And yet the motivated and unmotivated alike seem to suffer. Thanks. Marcia.
Thank you, Marcia, I love your thoughtful thinking! Appreciate your contributing to this dialogue that seems to have captured the thinking / imagination of many people! I won’t turn any of these into debates, but do encourage all and any points of view! Fun to exchange ideas, and what a privilege for me, getting to dialogue with so many bright and interested people I have never even met! Amazing! And people who really care about philosophy and values! Warmly, david
Hi, Dr. Burns. You asked for a quote. I think Marcia is referring to what you wrote about loneliness:
“One of the best ways to overcome loneliness and develop self-esteem is to decide to avoid dating for a while. Better yet, you might want to avoid relationships with everyone, if you have the courage!”
“All you need is one person you can really count on to comfort and support you, someone who will always be tender and caring. But that person is you. You must develop a loving relationship with yourself before you can successfully relate to others.”
To lonely people tempted to seek companionship you write:
“DON’T! You’ll simply defeat yourself. You’ve got to learn to be alone and happy before you’re ready for relationships with other people.”
In the interest of following the Five Secrets, I have to assert that I am disappointed to see you brush aside her question as if she was repeating an absurdity and just trying to start a debate. In fact, I think this is something that many clients (and even professionals) struggle with.
You clearly advocates the counter-intuitive position that other people aren’t necessary for mental health. Some would find this incredible and anti-therapeutic, and many have argued that while relationships often aren’t sufficient, they are necessary. Speaking personally I think it’s potentially harmful for you to have taken the position you did.
— T.
Hi Trish, Thanks. I believe that this is what I was questioning, when Marcia wrote “your belief that years of solitude can be easy or even enjoyable for regular people with no loved ones. . . .” This is an interpretation of my thinking, as you point out. If people strongly believe that they cannot feel happy or fulfilled without love, then this and function as a self-fulfilling prophecy. And the belief that you “need” love to feel happy and fulfilled can also function as a self-fulfilling prophecy. In my clinical practice, I see people who are hurting pretty badly because of this belief.
I see a huge distinction between WANTING love, which is healthy, and NEEDING love, which can cause despair as well as failure in efforts to develop loving relationships. However, if the idea that your belief that “I NEED love” is working for you, and it’s not a problem for you, then I’d say that’s totally okay.
We can list some of the ways this belief can be helpful, and what it shows about you that is positive and awesome, including these. The belief that I NEDD love to feel happy and fulfilled can:
1. Show that I’m a people person and deeply value loving relationships.
2. Show that I’m not self-centered or narcissistic.
3. Motivate me to reach out to others and find a loving partner.
4. Keep me in agreement with the beliefs of most people, since most people belief that love is ab adult NEED.
5. Make me happy and joyous and worthwhile when I feel loved.
6. Give me luck, just as Barbara Streisand points out in her song, “People,” singing with deep conviction that “People who need people are the luckiest people in the world.”
7. Give me gratitude when I am loved.
8. Remind me to treat the people who love me well.
9. Remind me that other people, and my connections with them, are precious and spiritual.
10. And much more.
Given this list, and the many more benefits you can probably list if you think about the issue for a couple of days, it isn’t clear why you’d want to modify or challenge this belief.
I see my work as exclusively helping people who are asking for help, and they are often people without loving partners who are feeling worthless and inferior and hopeless. Sometimes, or even often, helping the find self-love can be the first and amazingly empowering step not only in defeating depression, but also in finding the love that has so far eluded them.
When I was in private practice, 60% of my patients were single and no partner. This was my favorite group to work with, because I found myself in that position when I was young, and learning the secrets of how to date and more, and how to connect with people, was a great experience in my life, and one I have enjoyed sharing with others. In my experience, which is admittedly limited, and biased as well, the first step has always been self-love and happiness, and then the dating and all the rest have come much easier.
For what it’s worth!
Best, david