today’s featured photo features Mark and David on a Sunday hike.
Professor Mark Noble Shares his Thinking on the Uptick in Loneliness.
Rhonda starts today’s podcast with a beautiful podcast endorsement from Eduardo, a fan who loved our recent podcast 303, featuring the dramatic, humble, and inspiring Jason Meno, a data scientist and software engineer who is making superb contributions to the Feeling Good App. Eduardo was especially interested in how to bring non-verbal, difficult-to-access negative thoughts to conscious awareness with the Stick Figure Technique.
Today we interview Professor Mark Noble on the topic of loneliness. Mark is best known for his pioneering research on stem cells, but he has become an active and beloved member of the TEAM-CBT community since joining one of my Sunday hikes back in (date?)
Mark is currently an active member and small group leader in Rhonda’s Wednesday TEAM training group. He generously wrote brilliant chapter for my most recent book, Feeling Great, and has also written the Brain Users Guide to TEAM CBT which you can download for free from https://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com/resources
Mark begins by dedicating today’s podcast to listeners who may be struggling with feelings of loneliness, and explains that loneliness appears to be on the increase, along with virtually all types of negative feelings, especially since the onset of the pandemic.
He emphasizes that there are many roads to loneliness, including:
-
Loss of a loved one, including friends, family, colleagues, or even a beloved pet
-
Betrayal by someone you trusted
-
Being trapped in an abusive relationship
-
Being abandoned or neglected as a child
-
Not being accepted by your family due to sexual orientation, religious preference, choice of life partner, or other factors
-
Feelings of isolation due to COVID
-
A dead marriage
-
Infidelity
-
And more.
Of course, Social anxiety is one of the most common causes of loneliness, and last week we interviewed two individual, Cai Chen, MD, and Chan Mary Soeur, RN, BSN, who have fallen in love. Both were lonely and struggled for years with social anxiety. Their work with TEAM-CBT has not only helped them greatly with their anxiety and loneliness, but has brought them intense romantic love!
Not bad!
People struggling with loneliness often think there’s something “wrong” with them. For example, you may feel unlovable, and fear that you’ll be alone forever. In addition, the belief that we “need” love to feel happy and fulfilled often leaves the lonely individual feeling like they’re doomed to endless unhappiness and a lack of fulfillment if they’re alone. Mark explains that the scientific definition of loneliness is the distress you feel when you think that your ”needs” for connection and relationships differ from what you have.
In addition, he believes that loneliness is not abnormal, but is rather an indication of healthy brain function that has been important to the survival of the human race. For example, feelings of loneliness motivate us to connect with others. In fact, feelings of loneliness prompt babies to cry for their mothers when they feel hungry, hurt, or alone, and this process begins within seconds of being born.
We raised the question of whether the cure for loneliness is internal or external. The internal solution involves changing the way you think, and your relationship with yourself. The external solution involves trying to find a loving partner or becoming more involved in activities with others. Although this is the solution most people pursue, it often falls short.
David emphasizes the important of the internal solution, and discovering that you can feel completely happy and fulfilled when you’re alone. In fact, this is the first step in overcoming loneliness that he emphasizes in his book, Intimate Connections.
Mark, Rhonda and David also discuss some of the paradoxes of TEAM-CBT, and how the “need” for love often drives others away, since you are asking people to give you something you can only give yourself. In contrast, when you feel happy within, and no longer “need” the love of others, love will often pursue you.
We hope you enjoyed today’s podcast, and want to thank our buddy, Professor Noble, who has made so many in our TEAM-CBT community feel less lonely and more connected!
Warmly,
Mark, Rhonda, and David
Dr. Rhonda Barovsky is a Level 5 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. Check out her website: www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
This is the cover of my new book, Feeling Great.
It’s on sale right now on Amazon, and it’s ridiculously cheap!
The kindle and audio versions are available now too! Check it out!
I burst into tears and felt seen when Dr. Noble listed the roads to loneliness with his warm and compassionate voice, as I’m still traumatized as I witnessed my mother pass away after suffering excruciating bone and breast cancer for a couple of years. Thank you all for a great podcast, I’ll do the daily mood log and pleasure prediction sheet tonight!
Thanks, I’ll send your wonderful note to Mark and Rhonda! Warmly, david
So many great points from everyone in this podcast! I think Mark had referenced a study which is the Harvard Study of Adult Development that seems to have been making quite the buzz in the psychology world. It is one of the longest psychological studies every conducted (75 years). I think that’s the study where the phrase “Loneliness is as bad as smoking” has come out of. I wonder whether the actual lack of healthy social connections is the cause of these ailments or people’s thoughts which cause them to neglect themselves. Whatever the case may be, I deeply appreciated Mark’s sense of urgency and emphasis on the importance of this issue. Here is a link to some of the published articles associated with this landmark study. I thought you guys may be interested. Thanks for the wonderful podcast! https://www.adultdevelopmentstudy.org/publications
Super cool enhancement to the podcast, thanks, TYP. I will forward your comments to Mark and Rhonda, who will also appreciate you! Warmly, david
I really liked that Mark said our need for people is in the brain. I always said that it was an innate factor for people to need and love others. I know all normal people do. It keeps our serotonin levels optimum too. They have done research on this. I am really a people orientated person who connects easily to people. I like all kinds of people and have met them in life. One of my favorite things in life is people. Plus they have done studies on moneys who have had friends taken away and they get depressed. Kind of like my two cats who are always together.
Lovely stuff … but!Dr. Burns says ‘there is no self,’ and yet ‘you’re always with yourself.’
Thanks, very cool! Best, david
Actually, I’ve never said “there is no such thing a a self.” My thinking is radically diffrent, to be honest. What I have said is that conversations / arguments about whether a “self exists” have no meaning. Similarly, I don’t say that “God does (or does not) exist.” What I do say is that arguments about the existence of god have no meaning. Same for other esoteric concepts, like “free will.” Arguments about it’s existence have no meaning. d
Right! Cats are very social creatures, and very loving, too! Best, david
I loved this podcast!
I’ve struggled with loneliness a lot in the past, and for almost my whole life I’ve been plagued by vivid dreams about having the greatest love of my life caress me, kiss me, and make me feel better than anything else in the world. But then I’d wake up from the dream and I’d start sobbing and feeling so alone and miserable for days. Many days I’d actually feel intense anxiety about going to sleep, fearing that I’d have another one of these dreams. I started becoming more anxious about it, and started having the dreams even more!
Then one day after reading Feeling Great, I decided to try to tackle this anxiety and misery using “cognitive flooding.” I imagined the worst possible thing that could happen, and tried to make myself feel as anxious as possible. For me, that was imagining myself going to sleep every single night for the rest of my life, and I would have the most realistic and intense dreams about the most perfect lover who I would never meet in real life, and I’d experience the greatest love my brain could create, and then I’d wake up alone.
I suddenly burst out into laughter. That actually sounded fantastic to me! I could do whatever I wanted during the day, and then while I slept I’d have the greatest love a brain can feel all night long! I’d really look forward to sleeping! My anxiety vanished, and ironically, I haven’t had another one of those dreams since. Oh well! I guess I’ll go learn how to lucid dream again.
Thanks, Jason. Very exciting and awesome comment! Warmly, your buddy, David
I don’t get it. They speak about the catastrophic health effects of social isolation but then in the same breath say that it’s no big deal and all in our heads.
I’m not hearing a question, but happy to post your comment. Best, david
I know. No clarity on perspective. It is like they are defending two positions. All I know is that research shows people die of lonliness and that love and people are human needs.
Thanks Debby! Many people take this position, and feel VERY committed to it. I think that unhappiness results from not loving yourself, and nor from the lack of someone else’s love, but years ago I would have strongly agreed with your thinking! My clinical and personal experiences kind of pointed me in another direction. Keep posting your thinking, the dialogue is excellent, I think! Of course, I work with folks who are desperate, and depressed, and who have found that “needing love,” or “needing anything,” can lead to intense negative feelings. We do need certain things, like food and water, of course! We can WANT love, or some person’s love, or greater intelligence, or more success, or a fancier house or car, or greater prestige and approval from others, but (to my way of thinking) we don’t “need” these things. At first, I intensely disagreed with this thinking, and thought it was “bad” or “wrong” or something like that. Often people who disagree with e get angry, and don’t like my thinking. It is okay with me when people see things differently, since that used to be my thinking as well! Best, David
We’re built to need others, and everyone knows this. The plural of anecdote is not data, so a relative handful of cases to the contrary prove nothing nor do they disprove the research shared by your guest that social isolation kills.
No one who’s momentarily experienced pleasure on their own chooses to stay alone. Not Beck, not Ellis nor the patient you cite who eventually remarried and who you mention had family. Millions of people have quite literally no one but themselves.
Someone in therapy experiencing pleasure “on their own” is, in fact, feeling good in the context of an unusually supportive relationship. When they recover, they’ll either socialize or their illness will return.
Thanks, happy to publish your comment. Since you are arguing for your point of view, and not asking a question or engaging in dialogue, I’ll just let it go at this. If you’re not open to having your beliefs challenged, it is kind of like a door slammed shut! Best, david
On the contrary, Dr. Burns. Challenge and refute me; I want to share your beliefs. What monster wants people to feel lonely?
You invite further dialogue above. I gave three common points against your position. Your behavioral experiments seemed flawed for the reasons stated.
I gain nothing in being right and hope to be wrong, and would love that you crush these rebuttals with the vivacity and charm for which you are renowned. Cheers.
Thanks! The first section on my book, Intimate Connections, is all about how to overcome the fear of being alone and the belief that you need love to feel happy and worthwhile. Also, the chapter on the Love Addiction in Feeling Good is excellent, and shows how to test your belief that you “need” love with the help of the Pleasure Predicting Sheet. Loneliness never results from the lack of anything external, including folks who love you, but rather it is created by thoughts. And often, as you’ll see in Feeling Good as well as Intimate Connections, those thoughts are usually pretty distorted. Let me know what you learn! Warmly, david
I think its pretty clear that DR Burns saying that being “alone” and “lonely” are two different things. And what makes us feel “lonely” is the belief that we “need” people or things we don’t have. Plus Dr Burns stated that when we feel lonely we have less chances to find a partner or friends, because we would try to suck the happiness out of others, instead of finding it within ourselves. I truly believe that lonely people are the ones who are not interested in their own lives due to distorted thoughts, like they cant believe they can enjoy doing things alone and be super happy. I used to be one of these people, and Dr, Burn’s work helped me realize that i can enjoy myself and have much happier relationships because of that. Lets be real.. nobody wants to hang out with someone who is lonely and needy, we can emotionally support them but eventually would get tired.l
Thanks Sailor. You nailed it! Warmlly, david
Firstly, I have been read, participated in, and recommended Dr Burns to friends, family and clients and have used his methods personally and professionally.
I shuddered during this podcast at mention of studies from 40 years ago about women’s life expectancy married v single. Please update your knowledge of this subject immediately. The exact opposite is true today.
I am surprised that given the astonishing statistics you recall you would not have given the topic some critical thought around the misogynistic agenda to keep women domesticated in traditional roles and how this might have been a factor in 40yo research. One only needs to observe today’s political landscape to see this agenda clearly.
Hi Pam, you’re certainly right about the current (and past!) anti-women, anti-people o color, or different religions, and on and on. This is indeed a brutal era, so I’m all with you on that! I was just quoting my memory of the research on longevity, and often impressive sounding research is flawed. If you have a reference to more current research on women’s longevity (or anyone’s) and single vs married / partnered, I’d totally be interested! So please take the next step and share your knowledge, or what you’ve seen from a research perspective. I may be all wet! Best, David
Hi David! Thank you for the great podcast. I dont quite follow how some people thing you are pushing loneliness (some comments above), I think its pretty clear you are saying that being “alone” and “lonely” are two different things. And what makes us feel “lonely” is the belief that we “need” people or things we dont have. I think its very true, i helped me a lot. I also have a question – I am curious if the Beta test app is available to public? I would like to use it, but cant seem to find it.
Should be available at feelinggood.com/app. We’ve been working a bit on the website, so try again if that did not work, and let me know. Thanks! d