Social anxiety has been one of our most popular topics. It seems like lots of people get anxious in social situations. and a great many have even greater difficulties talking to strangers and people they might be interested in dating.
When I was in private practice, social anxiety, and “singleness,” were exceptionally common. In fact, 60% of my patients were single—they’d been divorced and didn’t know how to get back into the dating scene, or, they’d never developed romantic relationships in the first place. So today, we offer more tips and help for people who are afflicted with social anxiety.
Rhonda and I are very proud and excited to be joined today by a brilliant colleague and expert on social anxiety, Dr. Jacob Towery. Dr. Towery is a Stanford-trained pediatric psychiatrist, and was a student of mine when he was a psychiatric resident, He practices in Palo Alto and helps teach our weekly Tuesday TEAM therapy training group at Stanford.
Today (the day we recorded this podcast) was Jacob’s 41st birthday, so Rhonda and I sang a rousing Happy Birthday for Jacob at the start of the podcast! He kindly tolerated our fairly awful but heartfelt rendition of that classic song. Perhaps you could think of it as our own (fairly mild) Shame-Attacking Exercise.
As we begin today’s podcast, Rhonda reads a sad but moving email from Davide, who desperately wants to open up and connect with people on a deeper level, but says “these things scare me like hell.” In his email below, he describes his struggles and lists his negative thoughts about talking to people he doesn’t know. He is especially afraid of Self-Disclosure—telling people that he struggles with social anxiety.
To his credit, Davide has made significant progress, has worked hard on challenging many of his negative thoughts and self-defeating beliefs, and already has a girlfriend! But he wants to take his progress and growth to a new level.
Here’s the email I received from Davide:
Hi David!
There is no month that I don’t listen to your podcast and take some notes. Yes, you can read my email and use my real name as you like!
I really think that your methodology is a breakthrough in self-help and coping with emotions.
Also, the new technique of positive reframing is very helpful. When I started using it for myself at the beginning of every daily mood log I really noticed a faster improvement. I completely agree with your vision that it would be better if there weren’t schools of psychotherapy but tools that work.
Your books and works have really changed my life for better and I’m looking forward your next book Feeling Great! In these two years I have done many Daily Mood Log, I have also done every day for a month the Smile and Hello Practice and I got a girlfriend for the first time in my life!
I’m still not very good at breaking my negative thoughts though. I often end up with a lengthy, verbose and not so effective positive thought. Sometimes it seems that I understand rationally that a negative thought isn’t true, but I don’t feel better.
Also, my social anxiety is reduced, but not gone. I still have a lot of social anxiety when I’m around people. I understand the Spotlight Fallacy and Brushfire Fallacy at the intellectual level and I’m definitely improved a little, but still today I can’t remember a single good conversation with a person that I don’t know and I’m not very comfortable with. I tried to use the Five Secrets but I can’t think of anything good to say in real conversations.
I want to do some shame-attacking exercises and also disclosure to random people on the street about my social anxiety, but these things scare me like hell and I don’t have the courage to do these exercises. I know that these will help, but I feel really really scared and so far, I haven’t mustered up enough courage.
I want to leave home (I’m in Italy) for work in another country in Europe next year, but for me social anxiety is a really huge obstacle. This makes me feel a little sad because I see my social anxiety like a prison.
These are some of my anxiety thoughts at the idea of disclosure to random people on the street that I want to go to work abroad but I’m too shy and suffer from social anxiety:
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- I will not be able to say what I want to say because of anxiety. I will stumble in words and an inconclusive thing will come out.
- The other person will think that I’m completely crazy and I will frighten him/her with my behavior. I should never scare other people with my behavior.
- In the future I will remember all the things that I said wrong and I will beat myself up over and over again.
- I will waste the other person’s time when I try to talk to them. I should never waste anyone’s time.
- If I stop a woman, she will think I’m crazy creepy guy who wants to sexually assault her and I will scare her.
- The other person won’t stop to talk to me and will just go their way, pretending I didn’t exist.
Sorry for this lengthy email. When I read your response I exploded with joy and I decided to write a lot of things.
Thank you, Davide
Jacob begins with a personal story of his romantic adventure with a woman he’d just met at a Hot Springs. After talking for a while, some good chemistry seemed to develop, so Jacob asked, “Would you like a kiss?” Jacob immediately backed off when she seemed reluctant. Although he felt slightly rejected, they continued to talk and enjoy each other. Then things suddenly took a surprising and exciting turn in the opposite direction!
Jacob emphasizes the value and importance of asking for what you want, and recommends getting “enthusiastic verbal consent” before touching. that’s because non-verbal consent can easily be misinterpreted by both people. In contrast, enthusiastic verbal consent is respectful and empowering toward both people. It leads to less mind-reading and a greater chance of being on the same page with the person you are interested in. Rhonda acknowledges Jacob’s tremendous respect for the person he is dating with his emphasis on “enthusiastic verbal consent.”
Jacob, Rhonda and David also talked about the Burns Rule: People NEVER want what they CAN get, and ONLY want what they CAN’T get,” and how you can use this rule to your advantage if you avoid being pushy or needy. Jacob used the Burns Rule skillfully, and if you listen to the podcast, you will hear the surprising conclusion!
We also discussed the power of playfulness, taking risks, and sometimes being silly. In my experience (DB), people struggling with social anxiety are sometimes way too serious, and this can turn people off, particularly if you want to date. I can speak to that from personal experience, as I struggled with five different kinds of social anxiety when I was a young man!
With Jacob’s leadership, we illustrated a number of techniques that might be helpful to Davide, and perhaps to you as well, including:
- The “Consensual Compliment.” This is a safe, non-threatening way of approaching strangers, especially people you might want to get to know better or even date. Essentially, you ask a stranger if they’d be open to receiving a compliment. Jacob and Rhonda demonstrate this technique with role-playing, and explain what to do if the person seems negative or ambivalent, or if the person says yes. I suspect that Jacob created this awesome method.
- Talk Show Host. This is a great, non-threatening way to make conversation with any stranger in any circumstances. David and Rhonda illustrate it in a role-play.
- Shame Attacking Exercises. You do something bizarre in public to make a fool of yourself, so you can overcome your fears of looking foolish. Dr. Towery is one of the world’s most creative and funny teachers of this techniques, and I recounted one of his incredible Shame-Attacking Exercises in the Macy’s Department Store near Stanford.
- Smile and Hello Practice. You force yourself to smile and hello to ten strangers each day.
- Rejection Practice. Instead of trying to get a date, you try to collect as many rejections as possible, so you can get over your fear of being rejected. I (DB) once skipped medical school classes for two weeks and did rejection practice all day long every day with a young friend, Jeff Evans (aka Spyder). We both had a 100% rejection rate, but it helped us get over our fears.
The late psychologist, Dr. Albert Ellis, also emphasized the value of the rejection practice he did in New York when we was a young man. He asked 200 women in a row for a date in one week. They all said no, except for one, but she didn’t show up for the date!
But he said this helped me overcome his fears as well, and he ended up with an incredibly rich dating life and even ended up writing an advice column in a men’s magazine for several years.
Jacob said that he’s experienced many rejections as well, and agrees on the importance of overcoming this fear!
- Externalization of Voices. You talk back to your Negative Thoughts. Jacob, Rhonda, and David illustrate this powerful method, using the seven Negative Thoughts in Davide’s email.
Jacob strongly recommended several other resources, including podcast 197 with Dr. Matthew May as well as several of David’s FB Live videos on flirting, featuring Dr. Angela Krumm (part 1) and (part 2)and Kyle Jones. My book, Intimate Connections, is a bit dated now, but the wisdom and techniques in this book will be invaluable for anyone in the dating scene. Lots of people have told me that they started dating and got married after a long period of loneliness because of that book!
Jacob has recently published a book on depression for adolescents and teenagers called “The Antidepressant Book,” which is available on Amazon. If you have or know of a young person who is struggling with depression, this book might be a great gift for him or her!
My own new book Feeling Great, was released September 15, and is also available on Amazon (see the link below.) It features all the new TEAM therapy techniques, and is geared for therapists as well as the general public.
If you would like to contact Dr. Towery, feel free to visit his website is www.jacobtowerymd.com .
Rhonda and David
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com. Dr. Rhonda Barovsky practices in Walnut Creek, California, but due to COVID-19 restrictions is practicing via Zoom, and can be reached at rbarovsky@aol.com. She is a Level 4 Certified TEAM-CBT therapist and trainer and specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, and relationship problems. She also does forensic work in family court, but finds TEAM-CBT to be way more rewarding! Check out her new website: http://www.feelinggreattherapycenter.com
If you like our jingle music and would like to support the composer Brett Van Donsel, you may download it here.
This is the cover of my new book, Feeling Great. It was released on September 15, 2020! You can order it now on Amazon, or other book store sites.
I enjoyed listening to this podcast. Loneliness, dating and flirting are certainly topics that many are interested in. Unfortunately with our modern society these norms have become very distorted and led to extreme confusion on both the male and female roles.
While Jakob offered a great vignette and suggestions I think they are potentially horrible advice to shy and extremely timid men and women(a caveat, as presented).
In my personal experience asking directly to touch, kiss or do anything with a girl barring anything extreme will come across as very timid, weak, beta and usually lead to rejection which will further fuel the low self esteem, low confidence and lack of success with the opposite sex.
In fact the few times I asked a girl specifically to do something they got angry with me and thought I was a weirdo for asking. It actually makes me cringe how awkward it sounds. Girls want excitement, adventure, fun and fantasy not a legal contract of what will happen in the next hour of their life. Think about it; if you are asking them they will think “hey this guy doesn’t do this often so he has to ask if it’s ok? shouldn’t he know when a girl wants to be kissed? Come on he is 35 and is asking if he can kiss me, what are we 14?”
Asking someone if you can do something offers zero legal protection also. It is 100% a he said she said situation unless there are witnesses. So if you are suggesting that by asking a girl if you can kiss her or have sex or whatever that it will absolve you of any potential legal complaint this is incorrect. Mike Tyson famously had to resort to video taping girls on camera and have them tell the camera they agree to have sex with him and it is consensual, and they still tried to sue him for rape!
Here is where it will make sense. Jacob is obviously very skilled in human relations, confident, good looking and personable. If he is purposely asking them to do things knowing they will reject him 90% of the time which creates the cat and mouse dynamic which allows the other person to pursue you then I think it makes sense(example using eye gazing request later after being rejected). This is a high level technique which most inexperienced people will be unable to do at the beginning.
This was not clear from the podcast. You also have to be a skilled conversationalist and outgoing enough to create and maintain charisma which obviously most shy and inexperienced people are not.
My advice: ask out 100s of girls, get rejected often, see what works for you and what doesn’t. You will develop a sense of when things will work and when they don´t. But like always there will be many failures along the way. But asking what you can do every time will lead to some artificial robotic personality that is far from engaging, exciting and fun to be around.
Hi Joe, I read your email with interest and there is a lot of truth in what you say. Sometimes, these things are subtle, too. So someone who is secure may say or ask one thing and get a great response, while someone who is feeling down and insecure may use the exact same words and get dumped on! If these things were straightforward and easy, we wouldn’t have any shy or lonely people! I love your idea of rejection practice, which I did for two straight weeks when I was in medical school, and it helped, along with LOTS of other great guidance from a friend who was incredibly successful in the dating arena–the opposite of my 100% failure rate! Thanks for tuning in so thoughtfully. david
@Joe, thanks for that thought-provoking perspective. I also find the idea of asking permission to kiss off-putting as well. That’s why I was very interested when Jacob put it differently. He asked, “Would you like to kiss?” I think phrasing it as an invitation rather than permission makes it far more … inviting!
Thanks, Derek, so true! It’s the way that something is said, and that can be tough to teach and learn, sometimes! While our language skills are massively superior than those of say, a cat, our communication skills still have limits and we often say one thing and people hear something different. When you’re feeling relaxed, happy, and confident, you can say almost anything or even thonging at all, and it works! And when you feel inadequate and nervous and vulnerable, sometimes NOTHING seems to work! david
At the risk of sounding technical; “would you like to kiss” is still a clear question. I have no problem with the question when used well aware of the dynamic that can develop(expecting rejection and coming back with an advanced technique later). The example in the podcast was David who has never had a date. Using very high level techniques and asking if you can touch her shoulder, knee, kiss etc for a very shy person will probably lead to failure very often.
But paradoxically I think your invitation example probably would work.
You could say “If you wanted to kiss me I am ok with that”. This puts her in the role as the aggressor and will not feel pressure where as asking her if she wants to kiss is usually a no because she feels pressured.
Also lets think about it from the girls perspective. If you ask her if you can do something even if she wants him to kiss her, touch or have sex she almost always will say no because she does not want to come off as “easy”. So you are basically asking something which you know they will say no. So if you are aware of this and use this for a later technique like eye gazing or more aggressive flirting to create some sexual tension then I think it will work. The person in the podcast did not convey this message. He just said he always likes any contact to be verbally consensual.
Also asking a good looking girl if she is dating or in some type of relationship(outside of marriage obviously) is a clear no. I have never met a good looking girl who didn´t have at least something vague going on romantically. So again when you ask her the answer will almost always be yes I am kinda seeing someone. It makes you look weak and timid also. She is an adult if she doesn’t want to talk to you and go out with you because she is dating someone she will tell you. You are not forcing her to go on a date with you or to walk in the park etc.
But just asking for contact every step of the way because you think it will make you look polite and respectful is not good advice in my opinion. Lets think about it from the girls perspective: Have you ever heard a girl say oh I had this date it was so exciting we went out and afterwards he first asked to touch my knee, then asked to put his arm around me, then asked to kiss me and finally he asked if we wanted to have sex, it was so exciting. Oh I forget before we had sex he asked if he can take his pants off, it was like a movie. Reductio ad absurdum on purpose.
Main message: act confident, aggressive and with a purpose not timid, hyper respectful and peppering her with questions on availability and acceptable physical contact. Girls like confident, positive decision makers who are not afraid to take action not wavering timid men who are unsure what to do.
Thanks, Joe! Always so much interest in anything on social anxiety and dating. My book, Intimate Connections is on this very topic! Might be of some value! all the best, david
Thanks, joe, that’s awesome! Thanks so much! Yes, my “dating days” were pretty wildly different from what was described in the podcast! And an awfully fun time of life, too! Warmly, david
Thank you David. Intimate Connections is one of my favorite books! The seminal work on dating and social anxiety.
A woman invited me over to her place “just to snuggle. Right? Got it?” she wrote. I go over and after 30 minutes of snuggling she stands up, removes all her clothing and asks me do to the same. We snuggle naked for three hours until I can’t take it anymore and head home. A week goes by and she messages me to ask why I didn’t try to have sex with her. I sent her back her previous “just to snuggle. Right? Got it?” message. She replied “No girl ever means that. You missed your chance.” Now she’s dating someone else.
Moral of the story: asking for permission to kiss or eye gaze is ridiculous, beta, and gets you nowhere. Better to apologize for making a mistake than to ask for permission every step of the way.
Thanks, Douglas. Quite the dialogue is evolving! Seems like dating issues are popular and highly charged, too! d
Hi all. Derek, thanks for your clarification about “permission” vs “invitation,” I thought that was spot on. David, thanks for fielding responses to everyone in a diplomatic way, I appreciate it. Joe, I had a few thoughts about some of your comments. I don’t have a lot of time so this will be neither as sensitive or as thorough as I would like it to be but I’ll say a few things. First off, Joe, I think you have a lot of good points. I agree with you that women often like lovers who are confident and that being timid is often a turn off. I also agree with you that asking for consent is not legally binding and that most people aren’t interested in a legal contract before being sexual. You have clearly given a lot of thought to these matters and I admire that you vulnerably talked about your own experiences asking for consent and it going poorly. I think you’re right that sometimes asking for consent leads to rejection and I can certainly see why when it went poorly for you, it made you not want to keep trying it in the future. I would like to respectfully disagree with you on a few points. First, I don’t think that asking if someone would enjoy kissing or a particular type of touch inherently leads to a 90% rejection rate. In my experience, if you are developing a connection with someone, being playful and confident, showing interest and curiosity in that person and having fun, there are many people that will then say “yes,” they are interested in kissing and other forms of affection. Given that enthusiastic verbal consent is not yet very common (but I believe strongly this is where we are heading), I actually think that it shows MORE confidence to know that it’s going against the grain to ask before touching and still do it anyway. Furthermore Joe, if you try to read a woman’s mind and guess whether she wants a particular form of touch, rather than asking, you run the very real risk that she will feel violated and will have a quite negative experience. I don’t think this is what you’re wanting. I agree that sometimes trying to read body language can go fine but it can also lead to harm and I think the stakes are pretty high personally. You may want to talk with some women in your life and ask them if they have ever had sexual experiences that were not consensual, sadly I think you will find a high number of women will answer in the affirmative and many will agree that they wish the men they had been with had been more concerned with the wishes and desires of their female partner. Finally, I do think there are some good reasons to sometimes ask people what their relationship status is. A growing number of people practice consensual non-monogamy and if you ask them about their relationships, they can tell you about what their agreements are with their partners and this can inform what you can do physically that is within the bounds of their agreements. Also, at least for me personally, it has not felt ethical for me to be physical with someone if they told me they are in a monogamous relationship as I would not want to contribute to cheating. I think that’s up to you to decide what you feel comfortable with but for me it was important to have that information. That’s my two cents, thanks for reading and listening. 🙂
Thanks, Jacob, for further teaching! As I mentioned, your podcast drew a large audience (downloads) and has triggered a robust dialogue! Very cool and dynamic! Warmly, david
PS Glad you noticed this dialogue that is evolving!
Hello David, Rhonda and Jacob,
thank you so much for this episode, it means a lot to me.
I finally mustered the courage today to listen to this podcast and reread my email. While listening, a strong sense of embarrassment and anxiety pervaded me. So many people have got to see my negative thoughts! Also I realized that there were some English mistakes in my mail. So embarrassing!
Thank you very much to both you David and Rhonda and especially Jacob. His responses to negative thoughts have given me a calming effect because I find so much truth in them.
Jacob’s story with that woman particularly struck me. It motivates me to step out of the shell of social anxiety and seek such pleasant experiences with women.
Unfortunately I continue to be terrified. Today I saw a beautiful woman of my age walking down the street and I had the urge to try to say hello and give a consensual compliment. But the anxiety took over and I backed-off. I felt defeated, frustrated, sad and discouraged.
I will keep work on my negative thoughts hoping that one day I will be able to find enough courage to do the rejection practice.
Thanks to you I know what needs to be done to get out of my social anxiety. I just have to find the courage to do it but I am convinced that the result is guaranteed.
Thank you again,
Davide
Thanks, will forward your kind note to Jacob and Rhonda.
I recommend not waiting for the courage. You will be waiting forever! Instead, if you want, you can make a decision to smile and say hello to ten women of all ages and appearances.
But first, you might make a list of at least 15 really GOOD reasons NOT to do that. Plus a list of what your shyness shows about you that’s positive and awesome.
David
Hi Davide. Thank you for your kind words and thoughtful comment. I’m glad you liked the Podcast and sorry you wanted to approach a woman but then ended up not doing it. I agree with everything David said. I think that it is tempting to wait until we have the courage to do something but there are times where that might mean never taking action. It reminds me that the other day I took my son to see this Disney movie “Raya and the Last Dragon.” It is about this girl who wasn’t ready to do some scary things but she needed to do them in order to save this dragon she cared about. The quote I liked (and perhaps the main redeeming part of the movie) was “It may feel impossible, but sometimes, you just have to take the first step, even before you’re ready.” So I like David’s idea of smiling and saying hi first and then waiting for the courage to come later. 😉
Thanks Jacob! Warmly, david